Software Reality
Extreme Programming

Site Map

XP Central
Case Against... Songs

Use Case Driven
Use Case Driven Object Modeling with UML: Theory and Practice
Get from use cases to working, maintainable source code. Examples use Spring Framework, JUnit and Enterprise Architect

Agile UML
Agile Development with ICONIX Process
A practical subset of agile development techniques, illustrated by example

Get Controversial!
Extreme Programming Refactored
Extreme Programming with a dose of satire
Available now:




Extreme Programming

Message Forum - Archive, Page 1


Message Index

XP Programmers Needed for Coding Original AI Mind
Arthur T. Murray mentifex@scn.org

re: XP Programmers Needed for Coding Original AI Mind
Matt matt@SPAM-I-AM-bad-managers.com

re: XP Programmers Needed for Coding Original AI Mind
Arthur T. Murray mentifex@scn.org

XP Values Article Misleading
Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org

Respect
Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org

re: XP Values Article Misleading
Matt matt@SPAM-I-AM-bad-managers.com

Commenting on the Article
Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org

re: Commenting on the Article
Simon

Matt, it´s clear you´ve never actually used XP.
Robert Martin rmartin @ objectmentor . com

Ron and Bob
Matt matt@SPAM-I-AM-bad-managers.com

Facts
Dino

XP is a Retrograde Trend
Elliott universe@un-doradix.net

Out of context
Don Wells


The Messages
XP Programmers Needed for Coding Original AI Mind
This collection of articles will be a valuable resource to read and study for the purpose of improving one´s work habits and techniques in implementing the Mentifex theory of mind as http://mind.sourceforge.net/index.html -- the JavaScript AI Mind project which needs eXtreme Programmers to code the AI Mind in the best possible way for implementation in robots.
Arthur T. Murray mentifex@scn.org
Seattle WA, USA

Thu Dec 27 13:57:59 EST 2001
re: XP Programmers Needed for Coding Original AI Mind
"Incrementing Ego may initiate a train of thought??" What´s that all about then?

If you´re following XP, do your programmers have to be in the Seattle area?

Can XP work as an open-source project, i.e. would it still be XP?

Matt matt@SPAM-I-AM-bad-managers.com
England

Thu Dec 27 14:18:31 EST 2001
re: XP Programmers Needed for Coding Original AI Mind
Matt Stephens wrote:
> "Incrementing Ego may initiate a train of thought??"
> What´s that all about then?
ATM:
In the JavaScript AI Mind, it may be advisable to insert a few lines of code that cause the "psi1" activation-level of the concept of "self" or Ego to gradually increment itself, so that there will never be any possibility of the AI Mind becoming "brain-dead" when all other concepts may die down in activity, but rather the concept of self or Ego will automatically assert itself. In other words, after any period of inactivity, the AI Mind will suddenly think to itself something like, "I...(whatever)."

> If you´re following XP, do your programmers
> have to be in the Seattle area?
ATM:
No, they may be (and are) anywhere in the world. This Forum post and the followup post today on Usenet are merely an invitation for XP programmers to take a look at the AI Mind and other Open Source AI projects on SourceForge.

> Can XP work as an open-source project,
> i.e. would it still be XP?
ATM:
I do not know, but the techniques covered here in the Bad-Manager articles are certainly worthy of study, and I have just a few minutes ago linked to Bad-Manager from:
http://mind.sourceforge.net/progman.html
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/progman.html
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/progman.html

and I thank you for hosting this excellent "Bad-Manager" website as a resource for all programmers.

Sincerely,

Arthur T. Murray mentifex@scn.org
Seattle WA, USA

Thu Dec 27 15:45:26 EST 2001
XP Values Article Misleading
The article on XP´s values is flat incorrect in some of its characterizations, and draws conclusions that are not borne out in the many projects that are doing XP.

I would welcome a reasonable and reasoned analysis of when and where XP values, principles, and practices could go awry. This isn´t that: it´s baldly erroneous assertions about what we teach, and fantasies about what will happen that turn out not to be what happens.

There are things worth digging into in XP, things that can go wrong. There are certainly areas where it needs improvement or adjustment depending on a team´s specific situation. These would be real contributions. The present article is too far off base to be of much value.

Matt, you´re capable of better work. How can I help?

Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org
Michigan, USA

Thu Dec 27 22:35:09 EST 2001
Respect
Since this has been mentioned to me, I´ll pass it on. The phrasing of your heading for my comments is of course a riotously funny play on words, "bends over to deliver his rebuttal". On the other hand, my comments were largely professional and directed to the issues. Perhaps they deserve more professional treatment at your "end"?

There has been some small discussion on the fora regarding your link to the latest XP "expose". Most of the comments are from folks outside the usual XP spokesmodel circle. Many of them feel that you are misrepresenting what XP is.

As you know, I share that view. I renew my offer to help you (and your colleagues) understand it so that your criticism can be more on point. As it is, the objections you raise are too wide of the mark to be of much use: they just add noise to the system.

Of course, if adding noise to the system meets some agenda item like "stamp out XP no matter what it really is", then it´s a good strategy. But if you´re sincere about advancing the world´s understanding of good ways to do software, I´d expect a little more understanding of XP _before_ trashing it. It seems the logical thing to do.

Anyway, rock on.

Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org
Michigan, USA

Fri Dec 28 08:05:24 EST 2001
re: XP Values Article Misleading
Ron, thanks for the offer of help. I think your books and multitude of newsgroup postings are as good a place as any other to start. You´ve written plenty on the subject of XP already, much of it contradictory.

However, if you´re in a helpful frame of mind, why not point out exactly what you feel to be wrong with the article? If I agree (which is entirely feasible), I may even update it. Who knows...

Matt matt@SPAM-I-AM-bad-managers.com
London, England

Fri Dec 28 12:38:09 EST 2001
Commenting on the Article
Thanks for the offer of maybe updating if you agree, which you conceivably might. That´s the sort of thing that really encourages one to go ahead. ;->

I would be willing to sit down with you (and with Doug and Kendall) and to work through these issues. The material you´ve posted here is so misrepresentative, and the tone so unlike that of healthy inquiry, that I hesitate to do it here in the forum, with such a weak (but still appreciated) statement of commitment to the truth.

If you and your colleagues wanted to put some actual time into working on finding out what XP really is and how it works, I´d be happy to enter into a dialogue, either via email or preferably in person. The current he-said-she-said and prosecutorial tone doesn´t seem conducive to what I want out of the deal.

Let me be clear about what I want: I want you guys to understand XP as well as possible, so that the things you ask and say about it can be closer to the truth than they now are. What you´re doing now isn´t particularly helpful to anyone, because the issues you raise are largely addressed within XP, so you aren´t advancing the state of knowledge. Some critical eyes on the process who actually know how it works can be useful: surely there are issues and holes and situations that need support.

What I don´t need is to be correct as I stand right now. I´d like to have more of "the truth" coming out of the situation, and for you guys to have it also. I´d like to be closer to agreeing on what XP is, how and when it works, and how and when it gets into trouble.

That would take work, not just amusing banter about my unquestionably beautiful reBUTTal. When you´re ready to do that work, let´s start a conversation in some place where we can all be relaxed and learn from each other.

Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org
Michigan, USA

Sat Dec 29 08:23:47 EST 2001
re: Commenting on the Article
> That would take work, not just amusing banter
> about my unquestionably beautiful reBUTTal.

Are u offering to back that up with photographic evidence??

Simon
UK

Sat Dec 29 11:16:07 EST 2001
Matt, it´s clear you´ve never actually used XP.
Matt,

It´s clear that you´ve never actually used XP. You might want ot restrict your writing to things you know something about.


Robert Martin rmartin @ objectmentor . com
usa

Sun Dec 30 07:20:26 EST 2001
Ron and Bob
What´s this, Good Cop/Bad Cop??

Ron:
You appear to be operating on the principle that any opinion which is contrary to your own must be wrong, therefore is simply in need of correcting. Thanks for the offer, but (as I´m sure Doug has mentioned before) we already understand XP.

For a supposedly "lightweight" methodology, there appears to have been an awful lot written about XP (7+ books, the websites, Wiki and endless newsgroup postings). That´s rivalling RUP in terms of stoutness.

Seriously, how much does one need to read before you can be considered to "know" XP? At least RUP is structured so that you know when you´ve read everything you need to given the nature of any specific project.

Bob:
Thanks for the productive comment. I already do restrict my writing to things I know about, i.e. software development.

Matt matt@SPAM-I-AM-bad-managers.com
London, England

Sun Dec 30 14:32:47 EST 2001
Facts
I don´t have to eat shit to know it wouldn´t be good for me.
I don´t have to jump off a cliff to know its not a good way to travel.

"But you haven´t tried it".

Whatever you say, they are never going to say "Maff, you are so right, what a
fool I´ve been. Goodbye XP worshippers, goodbye XP money."

So don´t waste your breath on them. They will sell their snake oil, and the gullible public will drink it down, and fall upon you like a pack of wolves for making them feel stupid.

Rule number 1 of XP, shoot the messenger.

Dino

Sun Dec 30 20:08:35 EST 2001
XP is a Retrograde Trend
Keep up the great work Matt!

As software engineers, we should shine the powerful beacon of reason upon all OO practices and software methodologies.

Elliott universe@un-doradix.net
Beaston, n/a

Mon Dec 31 07:36:50 EST 2001
Out of context
Many of the quotes from the XP source materials are taken out of context. Consider for instance your own article The Case Against XP where you state "I have... gone to dig ditches by the side of a road somewhere." Did you really mean to say that?

Don Wells

Don Wells
Michigan

Mon Dec 31 15:40:08 EST 2001

 

Page 1 (earliest)

Page 2

Page 3

Page 4


<< Back to XP Central


<< Back to Software Reality


All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners.
Stories and articles are owned by the original author.
All the rest Copyright © 1998 onwards Matt Stephens. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.